Being a part of the Board of Directors can either bring a lot of frustration or be one of the greatest pleasures in life. In this episode, Diane Hamilton talks with Lubyâs Fuddruckersâ Independent Board Director, Jill Griffin, about the work and life of being a Board of Directors. A champion of women and men who want to win, she passionate about helping them rise as leaders into senior management and onto corporate boards. Today, Jill talks about women on boards and shares what led to her interest in this direction, as well as the challenges and what it really takes to get a seat on the Board of Directors.
Iâm so glad you joined us because we have Jill Griffin here. She is a Board Director, sheâs a Harvard Working Knowledge author, a Fox contributor. Sheâs got some interesting work sheâs done about how to get on board and Iâm fascinated to talk to her.
Listen to the podcast here
Women On Boards With Jill Griffin
I am here with Jill Griffin who is a Board Director of Lubyâs Fuddruckers. Sheâs a champion of women and men who want to win. Itâs nice to have you here, Jill.
Thank you for having me on.
I was looking forward to this because I work on a lot of advisory boards. I know you deal a lot with Board of Directors and especially focus on how weâre having a bit of issue getting women on those boards. Iâm interested to hear what led to your interest in this direction. Why donât you give me a little background on you for people who donât know?
I was able to obtain a seat on the Lubyâs Fuddruckers board and it came about interestingly by writing a book. I wrote my first book in 1995 called Customer Loyalty: How to Earn It, How to Keep It. Youâre saying, âWhat does that have to do with getting a board seat?â Hereâs what happened. I wrote that book and I did some tiny little presentations around Texas. Evidently in one of those presentations, someone put a copy of the book on Red McCombsâs desk. Your readers might not know Red McCombs, but he at one time owned the Minnesota Vikings and the San Antonio Spurs.
He is an amazing businessman in the car business, but he certainly has modified into other industries. He gave $50 million to the University of Texas and the business school bears his name. As background, he called me after getting that book and said, âI had always known there was something wrong with these JD power satisfaction ratings, but I couldnât put my finger on it. After reading the first chapter of your book I know itâs about loyalty, not satisfaction.â He read the book and the book earned itâs right to go in second edition. I went to see him and weâve become friends. He introduced me to General Robert Herres at USAA who wrote me a wonderful introduction. USAA is a military insurer and they have the highest staff loyalty and customer loyalty ratings in the country. General Herres was retiring from USAA and he was on the Lubyâs board. Lubyâs was in trouble and thatâs how I got that board seat.
Thatâs quite a story and itâs a great book. Youâre well deserved to get attention for your work, but a lot of women donât get that recognition sometimes. A lot of it is luck whether a man or a woman. Itâs interesting to look at the power that women can have on boards or the fact that theyâre looking at women at boards so much. I spoke at a women’s summit in Austin and there were other people there who were speaking about women on boards and they were talking about the California law that went into effect. I donât know if youâre familiar with where it stands but I know people were not happy with it. Some people were fighting that. They want a certain number of women on boards by certain time frames. Do you have any background on that? Do you want to talk about that in general?
I have met the woman who did the legislation and Jerry Brown signed it at the last minute. I read that there are some firms certainly helping populate boards in California. There are some firms that are saying they will just pay the penalty which is $100,000 because they do not want the government telling them who can be on a board and who cannot. There is some bad blood there, but when people talked to me about it, Iâve had some male friends that didnât like it one bit. I told them that when thereâs a log jam, sometimes you have to dynamite out off it. Thatâs my point of view.
Iâve had men tell me they didnât like it as well and $100,000 is not a lot of money.
It is not. That is probably one of the reasons that Brown was willing to write and endorse it.
Itâs bringing attention and that part of it is good. I donât think we have enough women out there on the board. A lot of what they want on boards are former CEOs and look at how many men are CEOs. Youâre limiting who youâre putting on board by saying what your minimum qualifications are, arenât you?
Yes, men CEOs are very much in demand but these men are busy. What theyâve done is drop down in some cases to C-Suite positions, chief customer officer, chief marketing officer, anything thatâs got a title of chief in it also deems will for giving our board seat. In my book, I started studying how people got these seats and I described two buckets. Ones an evergreen bucket and itâs exactly what we were talking about. You have CEO in your title with yours. CFO, if you can share in all the committee, if you can sit on an audit committee. Those are evergreen skillsets that will always be in demand. Thereâs another bucket and itâs the expertise bucket, which I fell into in regards to my expertise in customer loyalty retention, employee loyalty. The good news is those skillsets are increasing because youâve got cybersecurity and risk management. If youâre a small board, you might need a governance expert.
Iâm hearing a lot more of cultural experts. If the problem is that theyâre losing money due to engagement, soft skills, all of the things that fall into that category. If they have everybody on the board who can just read balance sheets, donât they need to be more diverse?
Yes, and in fact I was reading an article where a guy at KPMG was found guilty. Heâs going to have to go to prison for one year. Lynne Doughtie, their CEO said, âSoft skills are not soft skills, they are hard skills because the culture is what creates people telling the truth, being transparent, those kinds of things.â To your point, the culture is as important as anything these days.
My research is in emotional intelligence, curiosity and perception. Thatâs what I write about. Those are my research studies and that type of thing. When I talk about that especially with my research in curiosity, it all comes back to curiosity if you want to build innovation, if you want to build engagement, every single thing that theyâre trying to work on in terms of that. When I look at corporate job descriptions for these boards of what theyâre looking for, theyâre always looking for CEO experience, all these years of that or financial background. Iâve yet to see a job description focused on that. Do you see it?
In regards to what, curiosity?
Not just curiosity but also having the cultural aspect of what theyâre looking for on their board. Theyâre not looking for people who were more HR related. Theyâre looking for more financial related.
I have to be honest, Iâm pushing for a candidate that has a high ranking HR experience that is the minority. As far as curiosity goes, I know that I am intently curious and that is one of the reasons Iâve written as many books as I have. What Iâve seen around the board table is deeply probing questions that get to the heart of why a number is what it is. I would argue, that has certainly got curiosity around it and it seems becoming from some of our newer board members.
Iâve seen a bit more with the board being more diverse. With my decade of sales, I know that they do want the sales perspective. They want certain things in a lot of these people. I just donât think that a lot of people even recognize how to showcase themselves and I want to talk about that. You had mentioned something about the PG&E guy going to prison. I want to talk about some of the liability because a lot of people are turned off by worrying about being on boards if they arenât financial experts. If something financial comes up, theyâre held liable and then we realized that thereâs an insurance that they offer. Can you talk about insurance of what they should be looking for?
[bctt tweet=”If youâre simply going for the money, there are better ways to earn than being on the board.” username=””]It is called D&O insurance, Deletion and Omissions insurance. I had a friend who was reading my book on the airplane and the guy sat next to her said, âWhy would you even want to be on a board with all the liability associated with it?â A friend of mineâs son did his term paper, he was studying to be an attorney at North Western. He looked into it and said, âThere was a snowballâs chance in hell that someone would get sued with all the liability around it.â For something as egregious as Enron, thatâs another whole story. None of those people are ever able to serve on a corporate board again. I donât think anybody on the board went to jail.
More people are worried about the financial liability than thinking that theyâre going to jail.
The D&O insurance covers financial liability.
I was listening to Nancy Mayâs podcast about this. She and I both served on the Board of Advisors for DocuSign and sheâs got an interesting podcast. They were talking about, if you left a board and the D&O was covering you while you were there, but then they canceled that and they went on some new policy. Youâre not on it but you left, then youâre not covered because it went back in time. If somebody sued back in the time, that insurance is no longer there but you were there. I donât know how it works exactly but it’s tricky. Itâs something that people need a lawyer to look at. Are they always offering enough to cover you and how do you know if youâre covered if you leave?
We talked about that. We had certain divisions that come and report to us. When risk comes up, weâre always asking about that. The other thing that you do and I was advised to this is to have an ample personal liability policy over you. From what I know thereâs a slim chance that youâd be sued while on the board. I will check with my risk officer next time I see him.
The reason I ask that is when I was in Texas, the woman who was talking about all the boards was saying, âAll you need is one share of stock and if youâre not happy you can sue.â She gets sued all the time on the different boards from just little piddly things. I donât know if thatâs typical but they pay you to be on these boards. A lot of people are interested to know what they can expect payment wise if they were going to be on a board. I know itâs different if itâs a start–up versus a Fortune 100.
I would say micro boards which is what the Lubyâs board is, the pay is around $100,000. As you get up, youâve got micro cap, small cap, mid-cap and large cap. You got to almost be a celebrity to be on a large cap board. Thatâs paying up to maybe $500,000 or more. When you get to the mid-cap, itâs around $300,000 and the small cap is around $200,000.
Youâre going to these meetings four times a year and youâre talking in between times.
If youâre going for simply the money, there are better ways to earn them. Iâve been on conference calls that were three hours or more. A lot of times, they schedule them for 3:00 in the afternoon. Itâs certainly in the micro cap and small cap, there are better ways to earn money. Start-ups have not gone public yet. From what I understand they typically take their compensation in stock. Across all of these other boards, thereâs a certain portion of it that has to be in stock because they want their board directors to have skin in the game.
When you start on a board, do they put you through training? Do they expect that youâve had training in governance? How does that work?
Typically, they do put you in training. The board I joined was in such chaos when I got on the board. It was roll up your sleeves and jump right in. Typically, there is onboarding. Itâs about six months, youâre on-site, you visit different departments of the company, you ask questions, that sort of thing.
You spend much more time the first year than the four times going out there then.
If I wanted to and I said, âI want a ride and go to some of these other restaurant locations. I want to ride with a regional manager and I want to see whatâs going on,â I could easily do that.
Itâs interesting to think about what it is that you do when youâre on a board. I know youâre talking about the ride alongs and things to visit and see whatâs going on. Once youâre in the board like these quarterly meetings, what are you talking about? Is it all looking at financials? Is it all talking about turnovers? What is typical of what you are focusing on?
You as a potential board candidate should be testing your readiness. I have a list of questions that I have people go through when Iâm coaching them on a board seat. Itâs also in my book Earn Your Seat On A Corporate Board. Let me go through a couple of these. Number one is a deal-breaker from first question and it is, “Do you have the time to serve?â If you got a location problem, if you got a busy schedule, it may not be the right time to be on a board.
Do you say that people should serve only in their immediate location? What if youâre on the East Coast and you want to serve in California or vice versa?
You need to take that into consideration because thatâs going to mean a day trip over. Usually, itâs coming a whole day before and a whole day to get back. If youâre a busy executive, thatâs something you need to think about. I had someone that we were looking at for a board seat. She was already on another board. She had a lot of conflicts with the dates. Her dates were already taken when we would have our meetings.
They actually ran into that quite a bit though when theyâre scheduling their meetings. Do they have to call everybody like, âLetâs try and get the most people here that we possibly can?â
[bctt tweet=”You as a potential board candidate should be testing your readiness.” username=””]Itâs a deal-breaker if you canât make the meetings right upfront.
Eventually, people probably miss one here and there.
If you go in knowing that youâve got a lot of conflicts, you need to tell the person thatâs vetting you and say, âMy schedule is not going to work with this, I need to pass.â
Do they do them virtually or is it always in person?
They do them virtually and that certainly counts as attendance. Itâs better face-to-face though. You never can replace that. Youâre looking at body language and all that stuff.
I want to hear these questions. These are great. Iâm interested.
One is, is compensation a secondary motive for you in seeking a board seat? There are a lot better easy ways. Are you well informed about a board of directorâs liability? Weâve talked about that. Do you think like an entrepreneur? Are you financially literate? Are you a natural mentor? The deal is, management runs the company. Our job is to mentor management. Can you bring valuable context to the table? Austin is filled with technology companies and I came across a technology company that was a perfect fit for Lubyâs at the time. They went to black based on the contract that Lubyâs signed. Do you naturally bring humor to stressful situations? Being the researcher you are, do you like to dig deep for insight? Are you a team player? Are you naturally optimistic? Are you willing to speak up about sensitive topics? You have to and believe me, there have been many times that I say what I see and the men at the table are a little sourpuss about it but they get it.
Thatâs a big part of emotional intelligence and thatâs what I study for my dissertation. Itâs how you present information so that you know how it comes across to other people.
This one I love and this came from my friend Ralph Hasson. Can you cast the lone vote?
Be the one man on the jury who says the opposite, is that what youâre saying? To me, itâs all a question of logic, reasoning, taking the data and having critical analysis.
This is designed to gauge your bravery because you have to be a voice of one at times in order to get things done. I have definitely learned that.
How often have you had to be the voice of one?
On a conference call where we were forming a committee, there were all the guys on the committee. I spoke up and said, âWe have got to have a female on this committee.â I did not nominate myself. I nominated the other highly respected woman on our board for that and they came to reason on it.
What youâre bringing up is something Iâve talked about when I spoke at SHRM about curiosity. Thereâs a research study out there where they followed this woman in a doctorâs office. Theyâve surrounded her by all these people who were actors to see how sheâd go along with status quo thinking. They would ring the bell every couple of minutes or so and the actors that she thought were patients would all stand and sit down for no reason. She watched them a few times and eventually she starts to stand up and sit down for no reason. Itâs because going along with this status quo feels comfortable. Nobody wants to be the one whoâs not doing what everybody else is doing. Thatâs what Iâm trying to do with organizations is have them recognize how much they go along with status quo thinking. If everybody around you is saying yes to everything, that means youâre not encouraging curiosity and people arenât asking questions. Thatâs a huge problem in the workplace. I imagine you see a lot of that on boards.
You have to police it. You have to use your value system and look at whatâs going on. When you feel like itâs not filtering through your value system, you raise your hand.
I think people are afraid to do that though.
Thatâs why I say youâve got to be a person that can step up to the plate and raise your hand and say, âThis isnât right.â
In the four things that I found inhibit curiosity, the first one is fear. That’s one of the reasons people do not speak up and do not ask questions. Thatâs what we need to work on so much in the workplace. Itâs a huge thing.
[bctt tweet=”You have to be a voice of one at times in order to get things done.” username=””]Diane, you asked me what happens in a board meeting. Iâve got a sample agenda that I can talk through. In some days, you go full days. You can start at breakfast. In this particular agenda, itâs 8:00 AM but sometimes it could start as early as 7:00. What happens is from about 8:30 to 9:00, we have management reports. We have a CEO report, a COO report and a CFO report. The reason that time horizon is so short is because all of this is in read-ahead materials. Itâs a matter of asking questions during that time. We then have the committee meetings and they go about three hours because thatâs where a lot of the work gets done. In this particular agenda, it goes from 9:00 to 12:00. There are a lot of presentations of reports to a particular committee. Iâve chaired the P&A committee, itâs Personnel and Administration. In that are HR, risk, all human relations type of functions. We always have a working lunch and usually in that, in this case, the marketing update and the annual marketing plan gets presented. From 1:00 to 3:00 are the management reports. They look at capital expenditure, remodels, return on capital, structures, excess asset sales and debt. Thatâs a lot of whatâs going on because we have a lot of properties.
Iâm almost surprised they donât start with money, numbers or early thinking.
When we have a report from the CEO, COO and CFO, there are a lot of money discussions going on there. We generally start with that. We go typically into a meeting where itâs simply the independent directors. That excludes our CEO who is an inside director. This is where a lot of the very candid thinking and discussion takes place. We go from there into 5:30 PM cocktails and dinner that doesnât end usually 8:00 at night. It is a very long day. In this case, on day two, breakfast starts at 7:30. Itâs usually two days and youâre exhausted by the time you wake.
Iâve been on so many board of advisor meetings. Whatâs interesting to me is the interactions of introverts versus extroverts in a meeting. A lot of introverts donât get what they want to say because the extroverts monopolize the conversation. Have you found out that to be true?
Weâve got more extroverts on the board and more introverts in management.
If everybody is an extrovert on the board, are they all talking over one another?
I have a tendency to that sometimes. I will raise my hand, but pretty much the chairman of the board keeps it steady. Heâll say, âWe canât have side conversations going on. Weâve got to all be talking at the board table.â Side conversations start to happen sometimes then everything becomes chaotic. The chair is the person that has to pay attention and say, âLetâs all bring this discussion back to the table.â
Iâm curious about the committees because youâre in these committees but itâs a two-day event. You must do the committees outside of this two-day event and then report on the committee action. When you meet, do you do it all over the phone? How do you do these meetings?
The committees meet during the board time and then they come back and report what has happened. Some of those committee matters can also be talked about again in the executive session. If there is something that happened that was sensitive, that can be reviewed again in executive session.
Your committee was interesting to me because that was right up my alley, personnel and administrative type of things. Is that a typical committee that you think boards have though? I havenât heard of that necessarily always being in a committee.
I canât speak to other boards but somebodyâs got to be vetting HR, somebodyâs got to be vetting operations.
What kind of test did you do on that committee like an example that you talked about?
When our HR head comes in, we look at diversity. We look at whoâs being promoted. I always want to know how many women are being promoted through the ranks. Restaurant, and Iâll say this without candor, the hours are long and it is hard for women to want to do those jobs that take you late at night. I am always looking for ways to help make that happen. One of the things that Iâm pleased about at Lubyâs and Fuddruckers should that matter. We have a career path for every person in the restaurant, even the dishwasher.
I served on the Restaurant Alliance Board which I think itâs fascinating to look at the different types of board of advisors. Itâs interesting to look at the different industries because Iâm serving all these different industries from education, technology to restaurants. Was restaurant something that youâve thought you would ever serve on or you just fell into it because of your story?
I was already a big loyal fan of Lubyâs before I even got on that board. It was a natural fit from the standpoint that my area of specialty was customer loyalty and staff retention. It felt natural when I got offered the position.
Iâd talked to a lawyer about what would be good companies to work on boards in terms of which ones are less risky, if you have people potentially suing and different things. He said that you want to probably steer away from banking and medical because there are more issues in that respect. Not that this is a concern of mine, but it was something that weâre talking about different risks. Do you agree that those are two risky ones to maybe consider?
Given whatâs happened with Wells Fargo, who I still bank with because I love their online banking and their branches are close to me. The truth is based on what I know now, Iâd be open and I would do a lot of vetting. Donât get me wrong I do a lot of vetting, but Iâd be open to almost any of these things because I have enough experience to know where to look for where the bodies might be buried. Honestly, when my former husband and I were looking at this, we went to someone that we had high respect for and she knew a lot about stocks and all of this.
She advised us against it because Lubyâs at the time had some debt associated with it. My former husband wisely said, âYou donât get to be asked to be on the public board every day.â The Pappas Bros. who were renowned in Texas for their restaurants. They had Pappas Pizza and Pappadeaux. Theyâre a cash machine. They had just come on one year before taking a big stake in the company, infused a lot of cash. My former husband said, âI think the risk period is already over because theyâre on board.â I went in with that as my guideline and I was delighted that I did. The woman that advised me came back to me later and said, âI gave you poor advice.â Sheâs a dear friend.
Donât you want to have the challenge of bringing them back too? Thatâs how I look at it.
[bctt tweet=”Being a Board Director can bring you a lot of frustration or it can be one of the great pleasures in your life.” username=””]Me too. Weâve survived two fights. Those things weâre intense but then again you learn a lot about what happens when you are in a fight and how that is managed.
Weâve all heard people started not-for-profit to get experience. If you donât want to start that way and you wanted to do what you did, get to a nice board of directors job. Theyâre not exactly advertised everywhere. I know thereâs BoardProspects and certain websites out there that do a little bit of that. Usually, itâs word of mouth. How do you get people to know about you and how do you get these jobs?
First of all youâve got to get visible. Youâve got to get out there. Youâve got to get active in your trade association for people to quickly get to know you and your expertise. In my book, I have laid out completely how you do this. There is a lot of networking involved but the truth is youâve got to know where to network. In order to know where to network you need to know what board you are interested in serving on. The good news is so much of this is on the internet because you could go into annual reports. You can see what the retirement age is. You can see whoâs getting ready to step down and what was their expertise. I ultimately had people list out ten boards that they think they would be well suited for. By virtue of that, then that tells you how to network and who knows who. LinkedIn is an amazing piece of software. If youâre looking for board ABC, put that in and see who knows who there. It is not impossible and certainly boards are by invitation only but thereâs a lot you could do to fair it out what boards youâre interested in and who knows who.
You mentioned getting active in trade associations. Iâm curious which trade associations are you part of and which ones stand out in line?
Iâm verily involved in a trade association called National Association of Corporate Directors. There are people in that organization that are not on board, but theyâre there to rub elbows with people that are on boards. I found the Austin Chapter. In Texas, thereâs a Tri-Cities chapter. Itâs Houston, Austin and San Antonino. Dallas has its own chapter but thatâs been a fun place to be because they do a lot of education about liability, startup boards, a lot of those kinds of things. I would highly recommend your readers, whatever state theyâre in, check out National Association of Corporate Directors because every state has a chapter.
When you do that, do they have meetings that you attend or do you do webinars?
They have meetings you attend. They certainly put on webinars. Thereâs a lot that you can learn and thereâs a resume registry thatâs part of NACD. Iâm a little suspect on resume registries because youâre up there with everybody else. I believe you blaze your way to a board seat and some of it is personal branding and thatâs extremely important. I signed up for a seminar that is sponsored by one of the companies here in town. They had grown in people that are board recruiters at some of these large law firms. They are teaching personal branding, your mission statement, and what your resume needs to look like.
How do you find these board recruiters and people who are trying to get on their radar?
I got contacted by a board recruiter and we had breakfast together. He reached out to me, but again go to LinkedIn and type in âboard recruitersâ and see what comes up.
Thereâs so much out there. LinkedIn is huge and for those of us who have used it a lot, youâve got some great connections and itâs important. I know you talked about this in Austin. When I was at that Austin event, it was interesting to talk to some of those women who were there to talk about the boards and behind the scenes information. I was looking forward to having you talk about this because thereâs a lot of attention on women on boards, and boards in general and how itâs changed. Not anywhere near that talked about liability before all the Enron and things that are going on. A lot of people are looking at some of that. Anything that people could learn from your book is important. Itâs called Earn Your Seat On a Corporate Board: 7 Actions to Build your Career, Elevate your Leadership, and Expand your Influence. In case people would like to get a copy of that or just find you, is there a link or something that you would like to share?
My website is JillGriffin.net and all of my books are on the Amazon. If you look at the reviews on this board book, Iâm proud of them. One guy gave it to his wife for her birthday and she was very pleased with it. I read another one that said, âI donât want to bad mouth board books.â He says, âThis is the one that I went through and youâll see that I had all kinds of highlights and notes to the margin. Thatâs when I know that I get a book.â
The things youâve shared alone were amazingly helpful to anybody who is thinking about doing this. It was interesting to me because this is also something Iâve been looking into as well. I found a lot of interest from hearing all you talk and all the women in the Austin event. Itâs great to see that there is a lot of helpful advice out there. Thank you for being on the show, Jill. This is fun.
Iâve gotten to do such amazing, fun things in my career but this has been the pinnacle experience. The reason is you get to see a company from the top, how it operates, you get elbow-to-elbow with smart people and Iâm always learning. Those are the two things that I would say and I would not shy away simply because of being afraid youâre going to be sued. There are easy ways around that.
A lot of people are more worried about their lack of abilities to deal with balance sheets and reading financial records.
You have to sign a statement that you are financially literate and know how to do that. They made that rule after Enron. The truth of the matter is it doesnât stop anyone from going to community college to and take an accounting course. Thatâs the easy way to solve that problem.
A lot of us could always use refresher information. I know they do a lot of training and they do all that when you sign up on these boards. This has been helpful. Thank you so much, Jill. I enjoyed our conversation.
I did too and I loved hearing what you do. I like to talk more offline at some point.
We will do that.
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Iâd like to thank Jill for being my guest. We get so many great guests on this show. If youâve missed any past episodes, you can go to DrDianeHamilton.com. If you go to the top, you can go check out the show. Weâre all on different stations iHeart, iTunes, you name it, weâre out there. As far as on the website you can also find out more information about Cracking The Curiosity Code book and the Curiosity Code Index. Its all at the top. I hope you take some time to check out the site and I hope you join us for the next episode of Take The Lead Radio.
Important Links:
- Jill Griffin
- Lubyâs Fuddruckers
- Customer Loyalty: How to Earn It, How to Keep it
- USAA
- Earn Your Seat On a Corporate Board: 7 Actions to Build your Career, Elevate your Leadership, and Expand your Influence
- JillGriffin.net
- Harvard Working Knowledge
- DocuSign
- BoardProspects
- National Association of Corporate Directors
- iHeart â Take The Lead
- iTunes â Take The Lead
- Cracking The Curiosity Code
- Curiosity Code Index
About Jill Griffin
Jill Griffin is a Board Director of Lubyâs Fuddruckers, a Harvard âWorking Knowledgeâ Author; Fox News Contributor. She is a champion of women and men who want to win.
She is the author of Earn Your Sear on a Corporate Board: 7 Actions to Build Your Career, Elevate Your Leadership, and Expand Your Influence.
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