Is Money Bad Or Good?: A Paradigm Shift On Wealth with Susanna Mittermaier

If money makes the world go round, does it make it a bad thing or not? What does it say about us when we desire wealth in our lives? In this eye-opening episode, host Dr. Diane Hamilton sat down with psychologist and founder of Pragmatic Psychology, Susanna Mittermaier, to talk about wealth from a psychological standpoint. They answer questions about how money is perceived in this world, breaking down what is deemed evil as relative to how we perceive it. Having the willingness to have an amount of money is not necessarily bad, and Susanna explains this by tapping into the role of judgments, capitalism and socialism, perceptions, and ethics. She tackles the purpose of money and lays down the pragmatics to creating it.

TTL 590 | Money And Wealth


We have Susanna Mittermaier. She’s a psychologist and the Founder of Pragmatic Psychology and she’s a number one international bestselling author. She’s going to talk about wealth though. This is going to be very interesting coming from a psychological standpoint. 

Listen to the podcast here

Is Money Bad Or Good?: A Paradigm Shift On Wealth with Susanna Mittermaier

I am here with Susanna Mittermaier who is a psychologist and Founder of Pragmatic Psychology. She’s the author of the number one international bestselling book, Practical Tools For Being Crazy Happy. This is going to be fun. Welcome to the show, Susanna. 

Thank you so much for having me. 

You’re welcome. This is going to be interesting. I’d love anything that touches on the realm of psychology because my research was in emotional intelligence in my dissertation. Even though my degree is in business, I went on the edge and combined the two. I’m curious what your background is that got you interested in psychology and what got you to this point. 

I was always curious. I’m one of those people who always look for what else is possible in life. When I finished with high school, I was one of those people who didn’t know what to do. I tried so many things. I studied linguistics, philosophy and many jobs. At one point I ask, “What do I truly desire to create as my life? I got clear on what that is. It’s empowering people, show what their capacities are, and letting people know that they can change anything they desire. I looked in the university studies what matches the most and it was to become a psychologist. I lived in Sweden back at that time. I travel a lot.  

I have a closet in Austria sometimes when I’m not traveling, but at that time I was studying in Sweden, Scandinavia. It was an amazing journey. When I finished, it was a five-year program. I started to work in mental health in a clinic. I was meeting many different patients with different diagnoses. Before that, I was working in child oncology and it was amazing to meet all these people who have been seen as wrong, distressed and hopeless and then looking at what capacities are hiding behind this incapacity. At that time, I had this knowing that there must be a different paradigm to what has been handed to me during my education. That’s how Pragmatic Psychology was created and the whole journey began. 

That’s a fascinating background and I was looking at how you’ve tied it into wealth, which I also find interesting. You are a certified facilitator for Wealth Creators Anonymous, which is a special program by Access Consciousness. One of the things that your public relations person sent me that caught my attention is it says, “Do you want ridiculous wealth?” Is it a good thing to want ridiculous wealth or is that a bad thing? How do you get that? Is money corrupting us? I want to talk about that. 

This is such a question that we are like, “If I have too much money, maybe it’s corrupting me.” The amazing thing is when we realized that whenever we have a point of view about anything, it shapes our reality. It creates reality. If we have the point of view or we bought the point of view of someone else that money is corrupting us, then we don’t have a different choice than going, “I’m not going to have money because if I have money, I’m going to be a corrupt, evil, terrible and horrible person.” What if that is not true for you? It’s where you start to trust you that if I would have a ridiculous amount of money that I can’t even imagine, what would I do with this? Not what people are telling me I would do or how I would become if I have a lot of money, but what do I know? It’s like when we start to trust ourselves that we’re not inherently evil or horrible and when we have money, we’re way too powerful and we’re going to destroy the world. Some people choose to do this, but it doesn’t mean that you are that person. This is where you look at you and go, “Am I different? Am I like these people?” You have this willingness to have a lot of money and have a ridiculous amount of money because why not? It’s fun. 

It can be fun, I would imagine. I don’t know how much would be too much. I’ve seen Oprah talk about how there’s a point where it doesn’t matter how much you have. You can’t spend it after a certain point. You can only buy so much stuff. I was interested in your discussion there. You hit on perception, which is what I like to write about and also you’ve mentioned how you’re always curious. Those are the two topics I write about, curiosity and perception. You can see why I was interested in the work you do. When we’re talking about our perception in terms of what’s okay and what’s not okay when we’re dealing with other cultures and different things, do we get people looking at us funnily if we have too much? Is it considered gluttonous in some societies? Is that what’s impacting us of what we think we should or shouldn’t have? 

I think that judgments, whether it’s other people’s judgment or your own judgment, is something that people use to navigate through this world. It’s like, “What do you think?” I’m being judged as I have too much or I’m this or that. If you buy that judgment, it keeps you from knowing what you know and creating what you would like to create. It’s this thing that people make so real and relevant, these judgments and used them to go, “I can’t do this. I can’t do that.” All of these judgments are something that limits us from turning to ourselves and going, “This is what I hear. This is what’s been made real. This is what’s right and wrong, good or bad. I hear that and what do I know? What would I like to create with the money that I could create if I chose?”  

Whenever we have a point of view about anything, it shapes and creates our reality. Click To Tweet

That’s something I like to show people. It’s about finding out what works and what’s true for you. There are many judgments and maybe this is even for any culture or even beyond culture. This reality like this world we live in that if you have too much, you must be evil. It’s this equation that doesn’t make sense. If you have too much, you must be evil. I’m sure there are people and we see a lot of people out there if we read newspapers or go online that use money in a very interesting, not very creative and most destructive way. It doesn’t mean that you are one of those people. It’s about finding out what’s true for us. 

You’re bringing to mind the book Conscious Capitalism by Mackey, the guy who created Whole Foods. He likes to talk about this. I’ve put a lot of links into my courses. I teach about this, that you can be profitable and still do good things. A lot of people almost see it as separate. You’ve touched on that quite a bit. I’m curious, where are you located? Are you in Austria? 

I’m somewhere else every week almost, but my address is in Austria. 

In Austria versus the United States, for example, is there a difference in what we consider as success without trampling on others? Do you see a difference in different countries that maybe is perceived as bad in one and not in others? 

What I see are different reactions. People in different countries react to different things differently. What I see when I’m in the United States, there’s a different celebration of success that is not the same in Austria and not the same in Sweden. Different countries in Europe are different also. I remember when I worked in Sweden, it was more like, “You’re successful. That’s cool.” Austria is known for, “Don’t be too successful because you’re going beyond mediocrity. It’s like the tolerance or the allowance for going beyond mediocrity might be different in different countries. There’s a line in any culture for being too happy, being too much, being too successful. Maybe it doesn’t matter. What if we don’t make it relevant, whatever that line is. The book you mentioned, I was thinking of the Benevolent Capitalism movement also. It all depends on how you want to use money. You can use money to trample on others, but you can also use money as something that creates something greater for you and others. 

For example, I never was interested in money almost. For me, it was like, “Why would I create money? Money is there to pay my bills and to get by. I never got the meaning or interest in money. When I started with this Access Consciousness tools and especially the Founder of Access Consciousness, Gary Douglas, he showed me this different perspective of what’s the purpose of money. Why would we create money? What I’ve got is when I choose to have money and choose to create more money than I need for my bills, I have a more flexible way of creating in the world. For example, the book I published, I had never published a book before. I had no idea what that requires. One of the things that required is money. Every time that book gets translated into a different language, it’s a couple of thousands again and again. If I wouldn’t choose to have money, I wouldn’t be able to have the impact I have in the world. If you’re an author and if you’re not JK Rowling, the Harry Potter woman, you’re probably not going to make a lot. 

Normal authors don’t make a lot of profits from their books. They create money so they can make new translations, but this would be something that is great for other people because they have access to what you know. It’s this gift you give to the world. It’s not something that you do for profits. If you wouldn’t choose to have money, you wouldn’t even have the possibility to get your knowledge out there and have that impact. I started to get this purpose of money, not many years ago because I was never taught that. I was always taught that money is something bad and you shouldn’t have too much. You always should have this much as you need to pay your bills, but then I discovered you can create so much. I created a center in Vienna for Pragmatic Psychology. That would’ve not been possible if I don’t have money. Even if you start a business and you want to have a webpage and you don’t want to do it yourself, those things where you go, “Money can be something that’s creative and generative where I can create a platform that benefits not only me but also other people.” 

You said some interesting things. You mentioned Gary Douglas who was on my show and he was great. I’ve had many fascinating guests on the show. I was thinking about what you said about the book as well and not making money. A lot of people use it as more of a loss-leader or a way to sell other things such as they’re speaking and consulting. Some people use their shows to do that thing. There are a lot of people out there that don’t see how they can be utilizing a lot of these things because there are a lot of different ways to create money. A lot of people say it takes money to make money. What do you say is required to make money? 

TTL 590 | Money And Wealth
Practical Tools for Being Crazy Happy

I’d say the first thing is choice. Like what you say yes, but the step before creating money and having money to create money is the choice. If you have a mindset of poverty or lackI must admit, it’s very common that people have a pride in their lack. There’s this, “We don’t need money. We’re fine. Rich people need money.” It’s a point of view and that point of view creates reality. It starts with a choice to go, “I might not have come from money. My family might not have money,” or whatever the situation of your audience, but then beyond the things you grew up with, you have a choice. You can go, “I have no idea how to start and where to start, but I’m going to choose something different than what I’ve had so far or what I grew up with.” That’s a choice we make. This doesn’t have to be cognitive. You don’t have to think about it and go, “I’m going to choose to have money now.” It doesn’t have to be that solid. It’s like this light airy choice, “Universe, I’m going to choose to have money right now.”  

From that, you’d be in a different space where asking for money, creating money, making different actions to go there is way easier because you stopped fighting against you. You start to receive. An important element to create money is the willingness to receive. That is something we have not been taught. We’re always like, “You have to do it yourself. Don’t trust other people and be paranoid. Have your walls up and be careful.” We haven’t been taught that there’s a world of possibilities available. A possibility to be contributed to that is off the charts and that’s a different way of viewing the world. It might take some practice to get there and some tools to have that space available. It’s something that starts to become positive, which is the first step to creating money. 

You mentioned a lot of things in terms of the perception of money, which I found interesting because you were saying how you were taught, you needed so much. I came from what they called the old money that my dad’s family had. It had been around for generations. They looked at it in a completely different way. They almost looked at if people made their own money now as what they called nouveau riche. That was their perception that it’s bad because they’re spending money. They should be saving it because the old money people don’t spend “that” way. A lot of people like to judge other people for what they do with their money. What people can do is a lot of benevolent things and you’re talking about this. A lot of people reading this are like, “Money, I want it but I don’t know how to make it.” It’s easy to talk about what you do with it if you had it, if it’s good to have it or not, but how do you make it? Is there a pragmatic by step way? I think that’s what a lot of people are interested in knowing. 

I know that we all have this tendency to go “but how?” like there’s a recipe to it. There’s no general recipe for creating money. What I can say is to start going to that place of having money and creating money is to look at what is it you’re doing now? Maybe you have a job or you’re selling products or whatever it is you’re doing now and go, “What three revenue streams can I create from what I’m already doing?” You mentioned that before, there’s so much potential many people have, but they’re not looking at what else they can do with it. What I’d like to look at is I have this, let’s say the book or you have another product, you have a job or whatever. What three revenue streams can come from that? For example, if you have a job like when I was working as a psychologist and therapist for mental health. That was a full-time employed job. That was before I started my business. I was asking what revenue streams I can create from that.  

What I started to look at from that different perspective was so much that I gained from the job taken for granted that I hadn’t even acknowledged. I learned so much from what I do there and then I started to write the book from what I know. That started to sell. That was the first extra income beyond what I got from my normal job and I ask, “What else? What other income streams can come from this? What I’m saying is we often miss to look at what already is here that we have, that we can do or offer, classes we can teach or products we can create that we don’t see because we’re so full of this point of view that there is nothing else possible. You can always ask what else is possible that I haven’t considered and start changing your perspective. The information of what you can practically do can even come into your world. As long as you’re full of this, “I can’t, it’s not possible, it’s never going to change,” you’re full of filters in front of your eyes that keep you and prevent you from seeing what else you could create to have more money. 

I’m thinking about the people who’ve made a ton of money like Bill Gates, for example. They talk about how they’ve decided not to give all of their wealth to their children. Is that something that you think is a good idea or is it a personal choice? I’m curious what do you think of things like that? 

I must admit, I’m lacking a little bit information about what that is about. I grew up in a country that’s very socialistic. There’s a different point of view where you say your job as a parent is to give your child the money and to pay for their education. It’s inherent in the culture and that’s also a point of view. There’s this point of view where you don’t do it. You’ve got to ask, “What future would I like to create for my children and also what empowerment can I give to them? It depends on your child. If you have a child that goes, “I’m going to take your money,” and run. You’re not going to create anything and just live on that money, you get to see“What choices can I make here to empower my child or to maybe motivate them to create something? If you have a child that is super gratefulvery creativeyou know that if you give them money and supports them in their creativity, that’s a different situation. I would say look at your child and also ask, “What future would I like to create? Because if you don’t give them the money and that is something that makes them create more, then why not? What if there is no right or wrong choice? It’s something where you go, “What future would I like to create and who am I dealing with?” 

If you buy judgment, it keeps you from knowing what you know and creating what you would like to create. Click To Tweet

You mentioned right or wrong, which is fascinating to me because I teach a lot of ethics courses. Ethics is so subjective. That’s why I love to teach it. Everybody thinks that this is right or that is wrong because we’ve been raised with certain dogma or whatever it is that we’ve been around. It’s fun to be like, “What if nothing is right or wrong?” and put yourself in an open mindset. I think that we have to live within laws, but sometimes we get so wrapped up in what we’ve been told is right and wrong. Some of it is probably good to go by. Do you think that we’re held back by our culture sometimes of what we can do because we buy into something that maybe is outdated? 

Totally, because it gives you these answers and every answer that you buy or this practice is wrong, this is good and this is bad. Every answer closes the doors and every question you ask is something that opens the doors and you see things. It’s like taking away your blinders, taking away your filters and go, “I didn’t even see that. I didn’t even know I knew that,” and I could see those possibilities. Going beyond right and wrong, good and bad, for me is a new paradigm that we could mutate into if we want to create a different future that works for something bigger and for all of us. We don’t follow someone else’s paradigm of rightness and wrongness, but the way you empower you to know what you know and what you asked yourself. What do I see in this situation? What do I know? It’s where you bring your colors and your capacities to the matter. 

If you look at the past of the people who are having a big impact in our presence like Tesla or all these people that had great inventions, Leonardo da Vinci, they didn’t look at what is right or wrong at their time. They’ve invented things that didn’t match their current times, where people thought, “They’re stupid. How could this ever work?” They didn’t take the luxury of making their judgments relevant. They went, “I know there’s something here. I know this is something that the future requires.” That’s the case because, without many of these people’s inventions, we wouldn’t have the technical advantages and things that we have right now. What if this is not those kinds of people that we Google about or read about? What if this is all of us? If we value what we know, we can create a different future. You’re knowing what if the value of that is also something that can contribute to you creating more money and greater financial reality for you and more ease with that. 

It’s such an interesting topic for psychologists to be in to for one thing. I’ve had Albert Bandura on this show and Paul Ekman. Some of the greatest psychologists had been on my show, but we never talk about money. I’m curious because your book is Practical Tools For Being Crazy Happy, did you talk about money or write about money in that? 

No, I didn’t write about the money, but I had so many clients who have money issues. Psychology is about everything and pragmatic means doing what works, not being dramatic and going, “This is wrong.” It’s about making the choices to create something that works for you and money is part of that. For me, this should include everything and money is like if you have ease with money, how much more ease do you have accessing your creativity, your capacities. Many people spend so much time worrying about money. That wouldn’t be the case anymore. Many of them would have so much more access to who they truly are, the future they would like to create, the creativity, the capacities, the potency they have and could use them in a totally different way. 

You said you’re from a society that is more socialists and I’m from the United States where it’s not socialists. It’s a very competitive capitalistic and I was raised to be super competitive. It’s “whoever has the most money when you die wins” mentality. Are you hearing different kinds of worries about money because of where you are? Here, everybody who I meet are not super concerned about looking too ridiculously wealthy. They didn’t like that.  

What’s the worry in the States? 

TTL 590 | Money And Wealth
Money And Wealth: If we want to create a different future that works for something bigger for all of us, don’t follow someone else’s paradigm of rightness and wrongness.


The United States is like you can’t have too much. Nobody’s worried that they are going to have too much, that they’re going to look bad for having it. It’s a completely different mindset I would say. I was wondering if you hear different things where you are because people are bombed out like they don’t have it, not that they would have a problem with having it. 

It’s both. It’s there too that they don’t have it, but you’re not supposed to say that they’re willing to have it or that they’re choosing to have it because that’s bad. Everybody has this same mentality in Europe. 

It’s so different. It’s like, “How much can you get? How many choices can you have? It’s a whole different thought process. 

It’s funny because when we talk about it, both of them are not creating ease. It’s just this conglomeration of different points of view, whether it’s this side or that side. Both of them are different sides of the same coin. It’s a stressful thing of something is wrong and something is not exactly the way it should be or I am wrong on too much or not too much or whatever it is, all those points of view. 

A lot of it is people live within your means, but then you think that will be okay once you get to a certain level, then that bar keeps rising higher and higher. Is there ever enough? Were you ever going to be completely happy and completely safe? What do you consider ridiculous wealth? Doesn’t the bar always move? 

That’s the stress also. Ridiculous wealth for me is the fun of it and the ease of it. If you look at, “I have this,” and then there’s this level of gratitude where you go, “That’s so awesome. I could create that amount of money.” It’s, “What would I like to create with this? because having money is awesome. If you add the element of creation to it, it becomes so much bigger. It becomes this world beyond self-interest. It’s great to be self-interested, but at one point it becomes boring. You go, “There’s something bigger I can do with this and benefit me and so many others.” 

When you think about the others, then that comes into play. Who are your real friends when you get a lot of money? All of a sudden, you’ve got a lot of friends when you win the lottery. They talk about people who win the lottery end up being miserable and they spent it all. What happens there? Do you have lotteries there? 

Yeah, and I know that phenomenon. It’s funny because there’s a study even about it. The lottery and after two years, the money usually is gone. They spend it all and it’s what we talked about before. This different mindset of if you’re not somebody who is willing to have money or be seen as rich or create with the money, then often it’s something that you spend to have the same reality that you have before you won the lottery. 

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I don’t know if you’ve read The Millionaire Next Door or there are people that you don’t even think to have money, but they’ve been sucking it away for a long time. You meet people that have it, but they don’t want to spend it. They’re so worried about losing it that they don’t even live. They don’t do anything. Maybe that’s what makes them happy, but I often wonder, you work so hard to get it, why not spend it? Do you have a lot of people that you deal with who have done that and then they’re afraid to spend it? It’s a good problem to have. 

You see it in many other areas of their lives too. Money is one area where you see one symptom, but then they have this not thriving mentality. They’re like, “I’ve got to herd, I’ve got to keep, I’ve got to maintain, I’ve got to make sure, protect and defend, but I can’t live, I can’t thrive. You see this in many other areas of their lives too where they are living it that way. It’s like money is something that is fuel and can contribute to you if you’re willing to be contributed to and some are not. 

I’m curious, we talked a little bit about the socialist versus what we have here in the United States. I know that one of the things that they say here in the United States is like we don’t want this president because we’ll have socialism. It’s the absolute worst thing and that they see. I’m curious from being in a socialistic society, do they look at the US and go, “That’s the absolute worst thing you could be?” 

I’m sure many do like with any kind of politics or religion. Many people are using it as, “I have this point of view, this is better than that.” For me, whether it’s capitalism or socialism, I’m sure where it all came from was meant to be something that creates some platform that works. What people do out of it and made out of it. It’s like socialism is one polarity, capitalism is the other, but both of them are mostly not working as we see. I don’t see socialism working that well as same as capitalism. That’s why I like this Benevolent Capitalism because it creates something beyond these extreme polarities that we see in different countries. 

It’s where you look at you and you look at others. It’s always an either-or. Either you’re forgetting yourself and living others or you’re like, “I have to take everything from me.” None of that works, but Benevolent Capitalism is where you look at you, you’re willing to receive, have it easy for you, great for you, include other people and improve the world. Also, realize that not everybody is willing to be included. It’s not everybody is willing to be contributed to. It’s also using your awareness of, “Who can I contribute to that is willing to receive it? How can I use and invest my money that creates more?  

As you’re talking about that, it reminds me of a TED Talk that’s pretty famous out there by Martin Ford. He wrote a book about what’s going to happen with artificial intelligence when it takes over and all of this thing. He talks about how we’re going to deal with this because in his viewpoint, eventually there won’t be a lot of jobs. We’re going to be spending more time not working and have to give some money. Everybody gets a certain amount of money given to them. I found it interesting to listen to this. I’m definitely not an economist or anything like that, but my mind goes to what motivates you to work if you’re just getting handed money? Can you give me the psychology behind it? If I’m getting money to stay home, what’s going to make me want to do anything else? 

I know what you mean. I think there are many different kinds of people in this world. I’m sure there are some of them who go, “My motivation is gone. I’m going to sit on my couch and be, look and stare or whatever.” Some certain people have that and you see them already. In the socialistic countries, they do that already because they get money from the government for not having anything going on. It’s very easy to go to the doctor and then, I have this problem,” and they get money. It’s already there and these people exist.  

TTL 590 | Money And Wealth
Money And Wealth: Some people don’t receive the things that are available to them because their point of view of lack is so loud that it takes over their world.


There’s also another group of people who thrive on being creative and they’re not driven by money. Money is a side effect for them where they go, “It’s great to have money, but who cares?” It’s great to have money, but it’s the creative people that create anyway. I would not be able to sit on the couch and do nothing. I have a hard time doing a vacation. I tried that once and doing nothing is the most depressive thing on the planet. I think we would just go and create and what else can we play with and maybe find different ways of creating sustainable living Earth or invent things or play with things. Those are the different kinds of people who would react to that system in a different way. 

You mentioned people existing and I’ve always talked about that because some people just exist instead of truly live. They have no real purpose. They don’t seem to have a problem with it. I have a huge problem because I need goals and I need to accomplish things. I’m curious about the society that you have there. Is there a fear of not having enough or is there always enough that they get? 

I wish it was the way you said it at the end like there’s always enough and people would know that because that’s the reality, but most people are having a fear of lack. That’s incredible and it makes that real. It’s mostly that. 

I don’t understand that. If they know it’s coming and they’ve all had it, why would they have a fear of it stopping or not having enough if it’s enough? 

It’s so not logical like anything that’s often emotional and psychological. There’s a government who provides and they still lack in people’s world. It’s fascinating. 

Is it the perception of not being enough? Do they think they have enough, but they’re afraid it’s going to stop or do they feel like they don’t have enough? 

I think it’s this inherent point of view that there’s always something lacking or not enough. That stems from not receiving. There are those people who say, “I’m always doing for other people. I’m always the one who does everything and nobody contributes to me. I don’t understand this.” It’s like family members or whatever and then you go, “I would love to contribute to you, but whatever I do is not received by you.” These people who have the point of view of, “I’m doing everything for everybody and nobody contributes to me,” are exactly those people who are not receiving when you contribute to them. They just don’t receive. That’s what I see as a problem. People don’t receive the things that are available to them. They don’t see that there are so much that wants to contribute to them because their point of view of lacking is so loud and takes over their world. 

Every answer closes the doors and every question opens them. Click To Tweet

Do you have the same thing there that we have here of like sandwich generations where you’re taking care of your kid and your parents? You’re tapped into your finances more because you’re in the middle of this sandwich? 

I think so, yes. 

That’s such a big thing here because they don’t have enough when they’re older or maybe Social Security is what we have for older people. You’re raising children and your parents need your help and so you get strapped when you’re in this middle of the two generations thing. It’s always fascinating to me to see different cultures. When you wrote your book, Practical Tools For Being Crazy Happy, what was your main focus of that if it wasn’t wealth? 

It’s the wealth of possibilities. It’s also wealth, just a different way of actualizing it. Happiness is this wealth where we know that there are always greater possibilities available. That’s also knowing that there is no lack and it’s this different mindset of knowing that you’re different. It’s okay to be different. You don’t have to fit in and enjoying the difference you are and knowing that you’re not the effect of the world. You’re not the effect of other people. You can be you and you can have the space to be you and be the difference you be. You don’t have to make yourself fit into a box to make other people happy. That was the thing of writing the book. 

I know a lot of psychologists get into psychology because they’re trying to solve something within themselves. Would you consider that this was something you were trying to do for yourself to be happier or have you always considered yourself a happy person? 

I’ve always been a happy person. I had a period of trying to fit in and be normal, but that didn’t go well. Maybe that, but it was mostly, I always had this desire to show people that life can be easy and that when we have problems, we mostly create them to be normal. That was mostly it and especially when I worked in mental health and seeing how people who are different are being boxed in and labeled so quickly and so easily. When I was working with clients and patients, when a doctor said, “This is the problem and it’s hopeless and it’s horrible,” I had a hard time seeing the problem. All I could see is a person who is different, who functions differently and who needs some tools to learn how to deal with their difference, deal with their perception and deal with their awareness and then becomes a resource. It’s a treasure box that they can use to create a life that works for them. 

I’ve had a few happiness experts on my showMichellGielan and Mo Gawdat. I remember witMo, he was talking about his son who died and he had to learn how to be happy and face the worst possible thing you could imagine. I think it’s interesting what brings people to the platform that they’re at, promoting at the time because there’s always a backstory. I was fascinated by what you’re doing now with your wealth creators and all those things. I’m curious who your customer is. Obviously, you’d like to sell books and the things that you do, but is your biggest focus on your book or doing these Wealth Creators Anonymous programs and who goes to them? Where are they? If somebody is reading this, what do you want to tell them about it? 

I do many things. I’m one of those who doesn’t believe in niches. I always say, “What else is possible?” I don’t believe in niches. People go to my webpage and they go, “What else are you adding?” There’s Pragmatic Psychology. There are classes, there’s a book and they’re all over the world. You can always join them online from your home. There are the Wealth Creators classes in Franceonline and different parts of the world and the right voice for you. I do so many different things. The main thing is empowering people to know that they know, strengthening people, having access to their capacities and being the leaders that they truly are and the creativity that they have going on. There are so many things, whether it’s your voice, it’s financially, it’s as a practitioner. I work a lot with therapists, coaches and facilitators. How else they can work with clients with Pragmatic Psychology. There are so many different things to have fun with and discover. 

TTL 590 | Money And Wealth
Money And Wealth: The world is getting flatter that we are able to connect more and more.


You call it a new paradigm therapy, this Pragmatic Psychology. What exactly is that? If somebody is reading this, they’re probably going, “I don’t know what that is.” Can you get a little more in-depth on that? 

Pragmatic Psychology is about this different paradigm where you’re empowered to know that you know. It’s how we always think someone else knows better or has the answer. It’s about you finding out what’s really true for you, so you can create a life that works for you. Pragmatic means doing what works. It’s also about rather than fixing your past or fixing your problem, which we most of the times have been taught is the valuable thing is understanding the problem and then fixing the problem. It’s about asking questions about everything. 

Even the things you already call problems, especially those, because if you ask about the things that you have decided or defined as a problem and you asked, “Is this really a problem?” You let go of all the past reference points in the definitions. Many times you discovered that the things you call problems are actually possibilities. You just have a lot of points of view about them that doesn’t allow you to ask the possibility. It’s this different paradigm where we noticed that we have misapplied and misidentified many things as something that they are not. When we turn on the lights, we see them for what they are and we can change them way faster. 

Is this a workshop? Is this an online webinar? What exactly do they do? 

The form of it is a class, a workshop and it’s both. It’s in-person where people sit in a room like a class situation. At the same time, there are also people who join online from their home and sometimes they’re just online. 

You hold these in what city? Where is this held? 

There are classes coming up in Budapest, Hungary, Mexico, Moscow, Russia, Germany and in Switzerland. 

Are you at all of these? Do you go to all these yourself? 

I’m going to all of these, yes. 

That’s a lot of travel. Is this stuff you’ve learned through Gary Douglas’ information? 


Some people are simply existing instead of truly living. Click To Tweet

He was interesting to talk to on the show. I am very fascinated by all the people who I’ve gotten to speak with, who have a psychological bent to incorporating that with work and success. Everybody can use a little bit of insight and take a look at what makes us tick. I’m fascinated by all behavioral things. I think in the workplace, we have a lot of issues with behavioral issues because a lot of people don’t understand how to be empathetic. A lot of things that go along with emotional intelligence, which was my interest in what I wrote about in my degree. I’m interested for the audience, how would they find you? Is there a website you want to share or how can they find out more information? 

You can go to or you can go to There are also many things nowadays like TwitterInstagram and Facebook. You type in the name either Pragmatic Psychology or Susanna Mittermaier, you will find more information about all of this. 

The world is getting flatter. We are able to connect more and more. It’s great to have many guests from around the globe to be on the show. I enjoyed having you here. Thank you so much, Susanna. 

Thank you, Diane, for having me. It was a super pleasure. Thank you. 

You’re welcome. 

I want to thank Susanna for being my guest. We get too many great guests. I’ve had some great psychologists, everybody from Albert Bandura to Paul Ekman. The list goes on and on. If you’re interested in the psychology bent to business, you can go up to the top search bar and search for different shows. You can search by psychology for example or psychologists. There are many great experts in the area. It all ties into what I like to study, behaviors in business because there’s so much that we need to learn about developing empathy and interpersonal skills and a lot of the things that tie into emotional intelligence. We have so much problem in the workplace with engagement and conflict and team problems.

One of the things I do within my company is I go to organizations and help them with behavioral issues. I find a lot of them are very interested in what we’re working on right now with curiosity. I know a lot of you probably have heard the ads on the show, but we do a lot with the Curiosity Code Index, which is the assessment I created that determines the factors that keep people from being curious. Those factors are fear, assumptions, technology and environment for the acronym of FATE. What we do is hold workshops to get people certified to give the assessment or we go in and we train at the organizations by ourselves if that works, whatever people are most interested in doing.

What I think is so fascinating is how much that curiosity ties into so many factors that are tied to success. Curiosity is the spark that leads to innovation, to drive, to motivation, to engagement, to everything that leads to productivity. That’s why so many organizations are so fascinated by the work we’ve done because there’s nothing out there like it. The only other assessments out there that deal with curiosity deal with how curious you are. That will tell you if somebody is curious or not, but it doesn’t tell you what’s stopping them. That’s what I wanted to fix. If we can work on the issues that are holding people back from being truly curious and delving into things that could make them more engaged at work, that’s what I wanted to work on.

That’s what we created with the Curiosity Code Index. You can find out more about Cracking The Curiosity Code book, the Index, and the training to become certified, all of it is at You could also go to and it’s all listed there at the top. You can also find out about speaking, consulting and other things that I do there and sign up to find out about the shows or any information. If you want to contact me through the site, that’s the best way to find me. I’m also on all the social media sites @DrDianeHamilton. We’d love to hear from you. We’d like to get a little support for everybody who has been on this show because there are so many great guests. I enjoyed this episode and I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you join us for the next episode of Take the Lead Radio.

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About Susanna Mittermaier

TTL 590 | Money And WealthSusanna Mittermaier is a psychologist and founder of Pragmatic Psychology. She is also the author of the #1 international bestselling book, Practical Tools for Being Crazy Happy, and certified facilitator for Wealth Creators Anonymous, a special program by Access Consciousness®.

A highly sought after public speaker, Susanna offers a new paradigm of therapy called Pragmatic Psychology and is known for her ability to transform people’s problems and difficulties into possibilities and powerful choices.

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