Mental Health, Mental Wealth With Mike Pagan

Many of us forget or neglect to look after ourselves, and this ends up having a negative impact on our mental wealth. How do you achieve and maintain mental wealth? We learn how in this episode as Dr. Diane Hamilton discusses the answers with renowned executive coach Mike Pagan. Mike talks about why the proper mindset, peer support, and curiosity are essential to maintaining mental wealth and how it impacts your life. Curious for more? Then tune in to learn more.

TTL 903 Mike Pagan | Mental Wealth

I’m so glad you joined us because we have Mike Pagan¬†here. Mike is the author of Mental Wealth. He helps clients achieve positive mental wealth through building handpicked support networks and helping to unlock significant performance improvements. We are going to have a very interesting conversation.

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Mental Health, Mental Wealth With Mike Pagan

I am here with Mike Pagan, who is an expert in helping clients achieve positive mental wealth. He is also the author of Mental Wealth. This is going to be interesting. It’s so nice to have you here, Mike.

Thank you very much for having me. I’m excited and motivated. It feels good.

I’m excited since our good friend Camilita Nuttall¬†introduced us, who is one of my favorite people. She’s got a lot of energy.

I’ve known her for several years now on my cell phone on other podcasts. She doesn’t shy from A) The volume but, B) The energy and it works.

She is so funny because I go to a lot of events where Steve Forbes is there. She is dying to meet Steve and I keep inviting her but then something will happen and she can’t make it. Hopefully, we’ll get her to be at one of these events.

The world will change and is.

It was nice of her to introduce us and I loved having her on the show. She had great things to say about you and your work. I know you’re a coach and author of four books. There’s so much in your backstory. Would you mind giving your story to people who aren’t familiar with your work?

A simple start off is that my focus is on mental wealth. I have to be clear here from the off. Mental wealth is a play on the terminology, mental health. I’m not a mental health expert or counselor. My work is very much on building that support network and the right people around you that are fit for purpose going forward rather than the focus on the strengths of mental health, therapy and support. There are thousands of people that are brilliant at that and we need more. This is not an area that is getting any smaller. As soon as we get the right people building then that helps.

I’ve run a coaching business for many years now based in the UK. I’ve lived overseas in Australia for a number of years and travel about with the primary goal of changing lives and saving a life. When we get the mental wealth balanced correctly and we have that right support network, we have more fun. When the proverbial hits the fan and it does then we will bounce back more effectively. That gives us the scope to take braver decisions and become more successful in everything that we do.

We have a lot of similarities in the things that we discussed because I talk a lot about skills that help with behaviors, which lead to improving dopamine and some of the stuff that I wouldn’t say I deal with health either but a lot of that can be good for us in the end. Your goal I’ve seen is the simple life of what you’re trying to do with this mental wealth. What do you mean by that?

When you talk about the simple life, it’s about having fun with the people who love you and you love doing what you love. It doesn’t need to be any more complicated than that. It’s not about the size of your house, bank balance or whatever else. It’s where we settle and are comfortable. I always refer to that Zen philosophy of contentment. Everybody has a different level of contentment. When we take materialism out of contentment then suddenly, we find real purpose and direction, backed by people who truly have the support and love for what we’re doing and help us along the way.

TTL 903 Mike Pagan | Mental Wealth
Mental Wealth: The simple life is about doing what you love and having fun with the people who love you. It doesn’t need to be any more complicated than that.


We’re not talking about health so much but you do talk about self-care. When you get into that some of it comes into health. You talked about meeting some of your self-care needs and fitness in that. Why do you think that we need a coach for the things that deal with wealth?

When it comes to having a positive bank balance in our mental wealth, that means we have people that we have given permission to help us get better at what we do and how we work. One of the biggest challenges here is isolation. Isolation kills creativity, prevents decision-making and can, in turn, have a detrimental effect on our mental health because we start procrastinating, putting things off, stop progressing and moving forward.

When we have this isolation managed with the right people around us then suddenly, we would take a more proactive approach to areas such as self-care. Self-care is one of those areas. It’s very much, are we talking about well-being, meditation, mindfulness or how many burgers we eat? It’s all of the above. The priority focus has to be making ourselves number one. I know that’s an easy thing to say but I’ve jokingly said in my life that I’m number six in my family with a wife, three children and a dog. That means I come out at number six. This has gone with a wife, three young adult children and eight puppies with the dogs. I’m in a totally different mad world.

I was worried about my one Labrador making noise and you’ve got eight. My husband would add to the list. He comes in after my mother too. He always says, “It goes to your kids, your dog and your mother.” He puts himself on the list like that. That’s so funny that you would say that.

That’s the point. We need to switch that around because if we’re not fit for the purpose, for whatever reason, we’re not number one then we can’t help solve, fix or provide for others. It’s getting that balance as to what works for you. For me, I’ve always steered away from meditation and mindfulness because I can’t sit still. If I put on relaxing music, I fall asleep. What I’ve worked out is that, for years, I’ve completed active meditation. I’ve been very heavily involved in a lot of open-water swimming. I was part of a team that swam the English Channel and some other crazy, silly things like that.

I refer to myself as a bit of a weekend warrior. Some of the activities such as swimming, climbing, walking and other areas like that, it’s that repetitive activity, stroke after stroke, step after step. As a result of when you get to the end of that event, you feel brilliant. Your brain has cleared and defogged. You’ve had epiphanies popping in. Plus, the fact you feel a bit of cold, freshness and everything else. As a result of it, your energy is up. Your clarity is there and you’re ready to go for the next one, which is exactly the same feeling as you have of the quiet version of meditation when it’s successful.

I have a hard time with meditation too. Daniel Goleman¬†was on my show. We were talking about that because he got into mindfulness after emotional intelligence. It’s hard for me to do it. I was a swimmer too. Maybe I need to get more swimming.

Maybe it’s the active element because if you’ve done laps up and down a pool, for people who don’t like swimming, that’s so boring. That’s why I fell in love with open water because I don’t have to turn around and I can watch the fish, ducks and wildlife. That’s far more interesting.

I get worse. I tie myself to the end of my pool. I don’t even leave the end of it.

That’s the equivalent of being on a treadmill.

The weirdest thing is I love to be on a treadmill but I can’t because I hurt myself on equipment, doing the same motion over and over again. What I do is I like to listen to things and learn at the same time. I can’t sit there and swim. I would lose my mind.

[bctt tweet=”When we get the mental wealth balanced correctly and have that right support network, we have more fun.” via=”no”]

My wife gave me a set of those waterproof headphones for Christmas in 2020. I don’t use them in open water but in a pool, I’m listening to music, podcasts or whatever else. You know how long you’re in the water and how many laps you’ve done. You’re not counting that. You’re just listening and tuning out. Suddenly, 45 minutes have gone and you’ve got all the information in.

Is that mindful though because you’re still busy? Is that a good thing? Does that help towards the health end of it? Am I defeating the purpose by not tuning out at the world?

There are certain times when we need to block everything and there are other times where we need to go for a walk. Over the lockdowns, the number of times where you set up your headphones and you go out and walk, it’s that ability to smell the fresh air and have some freedom again. It’s all cathartic and it works on helping us get stronger because that links in with having a sanctuary, “Where do we go to? Where do you go to? Where do the listeners go to, to sit down, switch off, chill out, reboot and reinvigorate?” My daughter, wherever she has lived, always has a tree. She always goes and finds a tree and then will repeat. She will go and sit, watch the sundown and sunrise, take the dog and go on her own. She has done it since she was about twelve years old and it has worked for her.

When I was in grade school, they would tree you if you were bad. They make you a tree. I didn’t think it was such a bad thing. I never got treed but I thought, “If that’s the worst thing, that sounds pretty good to me.” As you were saying before about isolation, now how it leads to this poor mental health and all this, how is COVID impacting what you’re doing for people? People are more isolated than ever. What are you hearing people are doing to help with that respect?

It’s a massive area of further work. The statistics, according to the newspapers, which we can accept or not, there will be some facts behind that. They’re talking about a 30% increase in workforce depression and mental health issues here in the UK, which speaks reams. When we talk about going forward in the working world to the hybrid working of 2 or 3 days in the office, there’s a combination of people who were very anxious at the start of the pandemic of working from home and now people are more anxious about going back into an office. When you put all of that together then that feeds the isolation bubble because people are losing that learning by osmosis in an office environment.

When you’re younger, you see role models, what they do and how they work. If you’re sitting on the side of the spare room bed with your fluffy slippers on and your laptop to one side, Netflix on in the background and the cat purring in your ear, are you going to be as professional in your delivery as you would if you had been sitting there in an office? It’s that combination. We need to put the time together to build and reconstruct the teams because a lot of people have not met each other. The hybrid world and the matrix way of working are very much here for the future and need to be looked after across the board.

It’s going to be interesting to see what happens. I’ve worked virtually for nearly my entire career in one way or another whether I was a pharmaceutical rep or you work out of your home, even though you go out and call on people, I didn’t go to an office. Being an online professor for 15 or 20 years, I’ve been doing that. That was virtual and then doing this is virtual. I like it but a lot of people have issues with wanting to be around a bunch of people. I could see that you want to have a support system and to connect. I like the idea of a hybrid. When you could pick how often you go in, it would be nice but that’s going to be difficult.

There’s a part there about the difference between isolation and working alone. In isolation, we feel like we’re missing something. When we’re working alone in a non-distracted bubble because we’ve got a project that needs delivery by tomorrow at 12:00 then we’re in a focus bubble of activity. Isolated means we’re cut off when we feel like we’re missing something or we’re unsure who to turn to.

I’ve had the privilege of working with professional elite sportsmen and women as they transition to life after their career in sports. They had 35 people keeping them on the pitch, in the pool, on the track or whatever it is. The team comes down. None of them are fit for purpose going forward. That’s totally isolated, very much in a lonely place, loss of direction, loss of identity and who they are now.

That would be a big change. I know just from working in banking, when I did go into an office, you get used to a certain way of doing things. I missed the office situation once in a while but it will be interesting to see where that goes. In your book, you discussed the different kinds of support. You talked about professional support that what we need as individuals as far as professionals, wealth managers, legal people and accountants. Is that important that we have this help? Is that what you’re getting at with this mental wealth?

That is important because it prevents us from making poor decisions when we have people asking emotion-free, honest and real questions that we don’t ask ourselves. For example, I made some poor investment decisions. I’ll put it that way. The reality check of that was, I didn’t have a proactive wealth management team working with me at that time who were asking better questions of what I was doing. On one particular property, I didn’t take independent legal advice.

TTL 903 Mike Pagan | Mental Wealth
Mental Wealth: Unlock Your Potential, Enrich Your Life

That avoided me spending a few hundred pounds or dollars but fifteen years later, when I completed on that property in Cyprus, that cost a ridiculous amount of money. The few hundred I avoided spending upfront would have saved me thousands upon thousands had I taken that advice correctly. The reason why I use that story is these people aren’t necessarily on speed dial but because they’re part of our support team and network, they ask better questions than we will ourselves because we get emotionally invested.

It’s hard to know who to pick. In hiring statisticians and different people, I’ve hired to do certain things for the website. In those types of things, I have a hard time picking. I’m a little better at picking wealthy people because I have that background. I could sit on Quicken all day but for people who hate this stuff, how do they know who to pick?

That’s where the key part of trust comes in. If somebody doesn’t know their business that they’re not clued-up in the world of web, digital or SEO side of things but somebody else within their support network is then that’s who they’re going to trust for the advice and introduction. I was looking at some life cover and critical health cover because apparently, that’s the age when you meant to do things like that.

I was talking to my wealth team. They gave me some quotes and ideas but I still went and did some research. Mike, who is my Wealth Manager and who happens to be a very good friend of mine as well, turned around and said, “You’ve written a book about trusting your support network. Why are you wasting time trying to second-guess a better deal than I’ve already gone out and looked for?”

It was a slap around the face, which I needed because it’s that control freakery of me wanting to do but the flip side of it was, “That’s why you bring in these people in a team because you trust their advice. They haven’t made the mistakes. They’ve helped you through. Go with what they’re suggesting.” You can put your energy and effort into another area where you are clued-up on rather than trying to second-guess the professionals.

How do we know we’re not trusting Bernie Madoff?

Therein lies the fact that we’ve got a proactive team around us. When the proverbial hits the fan, as it will do, we will bounce back more effectively. There will always be horror stories out there. I understand that. There is no black and white guarantee here. By giving people permission to challenge us better, we can get better answers.

From being a pharmaceutical rep and having my husband as a physician, people go to their doctors even. They come in with more information, maybe good or bad. It’s a different world where you can find out just about anything you want to know on the internet whether it’s right or wrong. These professionals have to find a way to tell you you’re right or wrong or rely on me and make you feel this trust. You say how important trust is but you say that maybe we can benefit from having a mastermind or peer group that we joined. What do you mean by that?

I always like discussing masterminding with an American host because regularly, masterminding is quoted as being created by Napoleon Hill in Think and Grow Rich. This is not true. Masterminding started in the 1760s. It was created by an organization called the Lunar Society of Birmingham in the UK. There were people like Erasmus Darwin and Matthew Boulton, who were luminaries of the day, who met in secret because this was during the Industrial Revolution and some of the things they were coming up with were pushing the boundaries of industry and religion.

They had to meet on a full moon, hence the Lunar Society at night, they discussed in confidence ideas and ways of working. That society still exists now. That’s where masterminding came from.¬†I’m sure there are many other people that could come from the Saxons or previously before Christ. It’s that set up of giving people permission to ask better questions of us than we will on our own. When you’re in a business, be that a solopreneur or chief exec with 5,000 employees or more.

When we’re at the top, telling a stakeholder we don’t know the answer is not the way forward. Telling a codirector we’re not sure what to do next is something we won’t do because it might come back and bite us later. Your husband or wife doesn’t necessarily know what you do but they’re supporting you anyway. Your friends at the swimming club or the golf at the school gate will always say, “Go for it, Mike because you’ll always land on your feet.” Your employees haven’t got a clue because you’re never going to tell them you don’t know which way.

[bctt tweet=”If we’re not fit for the purpose, then we can’t help, solve, fix, or provide for others.” via=”no”]

That creates this whole feeling of isolation at the top of your tree however big it happens to be. Therein lies the essence of where masterminding is. We can sit there in the hot seat, be open, vulnerable and honest with people in confidence. A Chatham House Rule is, “Note what goes on in the room, stays in the room. No conversations are talked out of that room.”

When the next person is in the chair and you’re asking them questions, challenging what they’re doing and helping them find clarity in their direction, pearls of wisdom and ideas that you’re sharing with other people resonate. You’re constantly learning be that in the chair or sharing around the room. For me, masterminding and peer support groups are so powerful. They do help that ability to make better and braver decisions to enable us to achieve greater success and prosperity in everything we do.

Mentoring in general comes up quite a bit on this show. You don’t want to be the smartest person in the room. You want to be around people who know more than you do because then you can grow. How do you pick the group to join?

There’s a lot of chemistry involved here. When you’re choosing a coach, for example, I know full well that when I was at school, not everybody liked me. Funny enough, that can be said by everybody on this planet. That means when you’re in an environment of choosing or being selected, the chemistry has to be right and we don’t fit for everybody.

When you’re choosing something, they won’t take it personally if you say, “No, I don’t think you’re going to push my buttons. I don’t think you’re going to challenge or engage me enough.” We have to be honest in all that. That comes back to that self-care element of making you the number one, being selfish and very focused on what you’re trying to achieve, which means that I need to select the person that’s right for me.

I believe there are four types of interaction. This is how I describe it. I know and I hope you’re going to challenge me. There’s counseling. This is where it gets into the deep dive. It goes into our backed life history, the challenges, the things that have happened to us and around us and that condition. It creates those forward situations and how we can learn and overcome them.

There’s then mentoring, which is, “I built and created it. Let me share my brilliance, cleverness, errors and challenges. You can copy and learn through me, via me and my wisdom.” The consultant is very much focused on, “We pull the consultant in for a project. Can you provide an insight as to what we should do? Write a report on it. If we pay you a bit more then you can implement this. If it’s successful, we’ll take the credit. If it fails, it’s the consultant’s fault.” We know it.

The fourth area is the coach. The coach, in my world, turns up with a blank piece of paper where they’re focused on applied coaching, “Where are we trying to get you to? What are you trying to achieve? What are the options available to you?” In turn, asking questions around those options so that we can then help you choose what you’re going to focus on and apply and be held accountable for it.

In all this support interaction, people will dip in and out. I know I will dip in and out to vote all four areas but I spent 60% to 70% of my time in the coaching area. I was talking to a lady who is a mental health counselor. She spent 60% to 70% of her time counseling and went very deep. Clearly, that’s not an area I’m trained in or want to be. I will plug in, support and put the right people into that environment, depending on what they need.

It’s interesting because I do a lot of training involving curiosity and building of curiosity. To me, curiosity is the spark to all the things that we’re trying to improve engagement, innovation, you name it. Where does curiosity fall into these types of coaching, counseling, mentoring and consulting? Do you focus on that at all in what you do with your coaching?

Curiosity feeds from both sides of the equation, whether you’re the coachee then you’ve got to be excited about what you’re trying to do and discovering new, better and different ways that are going to help and work with you. In the same way as the coach or mentor, you’ve got to be curious about, “How can this person evolve? How can we help them? How can my knowledge be shared? How can that develop?” The curiosity is part of the excitement of the engagement. Without curiosity, it’s a training manual. It’s vanilla. It’s on paper. There’s no energy and excitement around it. When the people are involved, curiosity is part of that capitalist that makes it work.

TTL 903 Mike Pagan | Mental Wealth
Think and Grow Rich

It was fascinating to do the research because I found four things that inhibit curiosity. They were your fear, your assumptions, the voice in your head, technology, over and under-utilization of it and environment, everybody around you. It’s fascinating to see the things that hold people back because you need to figure out what stops people to move them forward. Do you do any assessing when you work with people? Are you DISC or whatever type of assessment?

I will touch on areas of Charles Handy, a tough battler, logical thinker and friendly helper. If the companies I’m working with want to dig deeper then I will pull in DISC, MBTI or Harrison International according to what they’re looking for. It varies on those organizations as to what they’re comfortable with because, more often than not, companies have got various execs who have all tried different elements. One person likes having random letters that they can’t remember what any of them mean and the other one prefers colors, insights, SDI and so on. It’s working within that organization to reflect that.

The key part when we do use any of those techniques is making sure the translation is correct because a title means nothing, as you know. It’s the translation, which is why Charles Handy says, “When you have the tough battler, how does a tough battler see a friendly helper? They’re irritating because they’re always talking and get in the way. The logical thinker is always blocking and wanting more detail. I want to fly and go.” It creates stereotypes because it’s through the generalizations but within those generalizations, there is an essence of truth.

That’s how I look at it. I’ve worked in a company and they made us put the results of our color analysis on our cubicle so everybody knew what you were talking about, putting people into boxes. I’ve given DISC, Myers-Briggs and a lot of these different assessments. To me, when I created mine, mine wasn’t about putting people into boxes. It was about finding out what’s stopping you so you can move forward.

It’s always interesting to me what people use for assessing. I’m a D on the DISC or I’m an ESTJ or whatever in all those different things. I know what I am. What is helpful for me, you can put people in these categories and overuse these things but sometimes it’s helpful to know what you’re not and what other people might be to build that empathy.

I wrote my dissertation on emotional intelligence and its impact on sales performance. The building of empathy was a huge part of what made these salespeople so successful. It goes across the board in many different ways. Everything you’re working on ties into the stuff I’ve researched. I thought it was fascinating. Is there anything about your book I didn’t ask you that you wanted to share?

There are a couple of elements to put in there. One is I challenge people to subjectively, not scientifically, score the people in your support network at the moment. The reason why I say subjectively is that it’s writing down a list of names of, “Who are the people that you think have got your back now?” On a score of 1 to 10, 1 being low and 10 being high, write down what score they are as far as how committed they are to you now.

The reason why we do this is that it goes back to that thing of knowing who are the people that are not fit for purpose for the future going forward but also who are the ones that are committed. Your 1s, 2s and 3s are acquaintances. They just know your name. Your 4s and 5s are people who are there for a reason. They work with you. You play sport together or something like that. If you didn’t turn up for two months, they wouldn’t ring you to find out how you were. When you turn up and say, “Where have you been? I broke my leg. Didn’t you hear?” “No. It’s good to see you again.”

The 6s and 7s are potentially your best friends. They can be good friends and the people you catch up with regularly. There are reasons why you get together. You’ve hung out for several years, potentially. However, you don’t share with them your intimate fears, concerns, opportunities or finances. Those are reserved for your 8s, 9s and 10s. Those in your mental wealth team, in the scorecard way of working, those people are the ones that matter.

It’s not to say that your 6s and 7s should be forgotten about or anything like that but in that inner circle of your mental wealth team, it’s the 8s, 9s and 10s. Some people, when they first score this, will only have 1 or 2 people that score 8, 9 or 10. The others who scored have lots of people in there because they’ve over-scored everybody because they didn’t want to offend anybody even though nobody else is going to look at the piece of paper you’ve written it down on.

It’s knowing that because then we can say, “Now, I need to start intentionally recruiting the right people to join me on my journey going forward. I’ve got these trusted two people. They know where I’m going. I’m going to ask them for help in finding the right people that are going to get me physically in better shape and mentally stronger. That will help me to reboot and switch off, help me through finding the right coach, ask me those ugly questions about myself and sabotage habits that I have.” This is where it suddenly comes to life because people then are surrounded by the right ones that have got their back for the longer-term.

[bctt tweet=”Masterminding and peer support groups are so powerful. They help us make better and braver decisions to achieve greater success and prosperity in everything we do.” via=”no”]

People are flying through my head now as I’m rating them while we speak. I tend to have a very small group but a lot of numbers seemed high. Is that unusual?

My late mother-in-law always had a line of, “If you can count your best friends on more than one hand, you’re kidding yourself.”

This has been so much fun. What you’re working on is important, Mike. I was excited to have you on the show. If anybody wants to find out and how to reach you, I assume you do work with people all over the world. How can they find you?

The simplest way is through It’s my website. That’s nice and easy. If you find Michael Pagan, he is a surfer in Hawaii. I used to get lots of tweets about wicked waves he was catching and I couldn’t relate to them. For ease, it’s via LinkedIn. I do quite a lot on LinkedIn and connections there. If you do reach out to me on LinkedIn, please say that the connection here is via Diane because that way, I know where we’ve been chatting and I can make that connection. If you’re interested in my books, they’re all available on Amazon¬†for ease or through my website. Amazon will probably get them to you quicker in the States and around the world, which makes it nice and easy to get them to you.

That’s funny. There’s another Dr. Diane Hamilton but she goes by Dr. Diane Musho Hamilton. When I get interviewed by certain people who ask me to be on their show from these mindfulness shows that are calm, I’m like, “Are you sure you meant me because I’m so loud?” I’m thinking, “I can’t possibly be who they’re looking for.” So far, we haven’t been mixed up.

I wouldn’t say so loud. I would say positive energy that really vibrates, which is a good way to be. I always like to finish with two things. One is, as we build the right support network around as individuals and within businesses, it will enable us to have more fun. If you consider the old heart rate monitor in a hospital with its highs and its lows because of the lockdowns and everything else, those highs for many were removed and didn’t happen. Suddenly, this whole average range dropped and we stopped having as much fun. With the right support from people around us, we can build that up. Fun becomes a positive by-product of this.

The other side of this is a slightly heavy moment but it’s a very real point. I believe it’s our duty as quality human beings to ask better questions. When we ask somebody about how they’re feeling and they say they’re fine, we all know that’s an acronym that can mean all sorts of other things. If you haven’t spoken to somebody for a couple of months and your gut feel or intuition says, “I should reach out,” then do so. Please pick up the phone. Don’t text them. Don’t send a social media blip or whatever it is. Ring them because you don’t know what they’re going through that might be an absolute gem for you doing it.

I have this particular example where my youngest son and, sadly, one of his school friends was unsuccessful in a suicide attempt. On that particular day, I had a phone call from one of my best friends that live in Pennsylvania. We catch up every 2 or 3 months. Before I asked him how he was and what was going on, I said straight off, “Bart, why have you rung me?” He said, “That’s a very strange way to answer the phone.” I said, “There are reasons behind it but I’ll get to that. Why have you rung? Take me through the journey in your head. What made you pick up the phone?”

This is a man who is a doctor. He was returning from work at 6:00 in the morning, having done the night shift in the hospital. We couldn’t find a reason why he rang aside with pure intuition. He felt the need to pick up the phone and ring me that day. Believe me, I needed that phone call. The fact that he is a doctor meant I could ask all sorts of questions.

Unfortunately, this young man is doing very well and moving forward and everything else with it. That’s part of the whole mental wealth associated with mental health. The better we are at asking better questions of other people, the more creative and interesting some of the answers will be, which means we can have more fun, become more successful and enjoy what we’re doing.

Everything you’re working on is so uplifting. This was fun. I’m glad that Camilita introduced us. Thank you for being on the show.

TTL 903 Mike Pagan | Mental Wealth
Mental Wealth: If you can count your best friends on more than one hand, you’re kidding yourself.


It has been an absolute pleasure. I look forward to talking more, seeing all the wonderful stuff and learning more about the Curiosity Code, sexual power and everything that you do because it’s massive and huge. There’s so much. It’s brilliant. I love it.

Thank you so much, Mike.

I would like to thank Mike for being my guest. We get so many great guests on the show. If you’ve missed any past episodes, including the one of Camilita who is on the show and introduced me to Mike, you can find them at There’s a search bar on the side of the site if you want to search for somebody’s name. You could search for Camilita Nuttall, Steve Forbes, Ken Fisher¬†or Guy Kawasaki. They’ve all been on the show. They’re all fascinating. They’re worth taking a search to find from the past episodes.

I know we’ve had so many guests on this show and it’s hard to keep up but what’s great about having the shows transcribed is you can get bits and pieces of written content that maybe you missed or you’ve read the past episode and you go, “They talked about emotional intelligence or something on that show.” You can look it up by buzzwords and find things. It’s wonderful to do that.

Also on the site is all the information on curiosity and perception. If you’re interested in taking the Curiosity Code Index, which we talked about in the interview or if you want to take the Perception Power Index, they’re both on the site. You can drop down the menus for curiosity and perception. There are menus at the top and bottom. Make sure you scroll down to the bottom if you don’t see something you want to find on the site because we have testimonials and so much more at the bottom.

If you go to the blog and look at any of the past shows, there are all kinds of tweetable moments on there. Feel free to do a shout-out or tweet something that you found meaningful. We would love to hear what from the show you found helpful. You can contact me also through the site for any of my speaking and consulting information. We have all kinds of free chapters from the book,¬†Cracking the Curiosity Code. There’s free content about courses.

Also, if you’re a consultant, HR professional or somebody who wants to get certified to give the CCI or the PPI, please contact me because you can do that. You can get five hours of SHRM recertification credit for some of the courses. I’m creating new courses all the time. If you’re reading this later, there may be new stuff. Make sure you check out the site to see what’s available. I enjoyed having Mike on the show. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Join us for the next episode of Take The Lead Radio.

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About Mike Pagan

TTL 903 Mike Pagan | Mental WealthMike Pagan is an expert in helping clients achieve positive mental wealth through building handpicked support networks and helping them unlock significant performance improvements. His expertise includes working with entrepreneurial small businesses through to corporate board members and professional sportsmen and women, domestically and internationally. He is the Author of Mental Wealth: Unlock Your Potential, Enrich Your Life.



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